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Rinie van Dijk
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every time when i start my laptop it's freezes. I push above the touchpad and it works again. Several times i type a document, it's freezes, i push again and the tekst i typed comes ahead. What can be wrong?
thanks for reply
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Go2Dave
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Jun 5, 2007 14:30:12 GMT
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Did you find a solution for this problem. I am having the same problem with 2 nx6110 notebooks. |
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Rinie van Dijk
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Jun 6, 2007 04:01:34 GMT
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yes i bought another mainboard (180 eur), below the touchpad is a chip with is damaged... very difficult to repair.
greets |
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Francesco R
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Dec 14, 2007 12:06:36 GMT
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Rinie van Dijk
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Dec 14, 2007 14:27:29 GMT
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the report came from a repairman, there are several pins on it, and one or some of them are damaged
greets |
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Francesco R
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Dec 14, 2007 14:43:54 GMT
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Thank you VERY much for your prompt answer.
I just disassembled the nx6110, and as in your case, the problem is clearly on the motherboard (I tried without keyboard, hard disk, touch pad... always the same). When it hangs I push a bit plastic between the touchpad and the keyboard, and it keeps going fine.
I guess I'll keep it like this: working just on my desk, without moving it much around. 180$ is too much, better by a new one I guess.
By the way, I have a friend who is a maniac with electronics ...very good at tin welding, Rinie, do you think he may repair it?
Thank you once more
Francesco |
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Rinie van Dijk
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Dec 14, 2007 17:56:56 GMT
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Hay Francesco,
Perhaps he can fix it (but the connectors are very small)
btw: watch out for damaging your harddisk if you not reparing your computer. If the computer stops several times, the harddisk stops also and will be damaged..
(sorry for bad english) |
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Francesco R
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Dec 15, 2007 14:22:05 GMT
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Thank you once more,
as I see in
http://h20141.www2.hp.com/hpparts/lcl/IT/Search_Results.asp?mscssid=WJ8GWM2AKKX68GS57RL8E3BNCP6AFBX5
a new main board for my nx6110 cost
321.90 Euro (+ vat I guess)
not bad, eh?
your was much cheaper (maybe I shoud ask to some professional service, maybe they can give it to me for a cheaper price).
Anyhow you're right, cannot keep going this way.
I guess we'll try to fix the component, if it does not work I'll go for a new laptop (ggrrrr..... :)
thank you once more
Francesco |
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ata 2007
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Dec 24, 2007 14:33:08 GMT
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Exactly the same problem with me!
finger on alt gr key.. putting a thin book under the feet..
Isn't it a manufacturing fault? Have you guys tried to have HP change mother board with a new one for free? Actually, it is non sense to pay so much repair/spare part fee for such old computer! Did we buy these PCs to last for 2.5 years??
Any ideas which chip is that? Number? Or a sort of mark to locate its position? I think, I will try to have it fixed.. |
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Rinie van Dijk
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Dec 24, 2007 14:46:31 GMT
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i'm sorry to read you have the same error....
i bought the mainboard from someone who has a damaged screen..
i don't know excactly which chip you must have, but's below the mousepad... (the big one
Greetz |
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ata 2007
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Dec 26, 2007 13:46:54 GMT
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I think I have solved the problem. I've dismantled the notebook (check c00502970.pdf) and put a rubber distance piece -cut from an pencil eraser- on that big Intel chip, to apply a certain pressure after assembly. It works perfect for the last hour.. :) |
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Francesco R
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Dec 27, 2007 21:44:04 GMT
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Jim Boyland
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Jan 28, 2008 20:27:37 GMT
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I have approx 80 of these units in a hospital environment. Currently 4 of the original 80 have this symptom exactly. I have had to take them out of the environment, but would like to develope a rubber "pressure point" fix solution like described here. Any help in exactly how large and thick this rubber piece is and where exactly to place this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
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Francesco R
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Jan 28, 2008 21:06:51 GMT
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ata 2007, you should answer :)
Jim, I've tried them all!
It works for some hours, then it's the same.
It's clearly the motherboard, no doubt.
I think the cause was the additional battery (9 cell original HP) I had on always on, on the bottom of the laptop. Do you guys also had such a battery on?
What I do is to leave music on, so when music stops I know I have to squeeze the front part.
ahahahahhahahiiii |
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Jim Boyland
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Jan 28, 2008 21:39:45 GMT
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I will try to develope an exact proceedure to fix this and let everyone know. I do not have the additional battery as you describe. These are out of warranty, but too expensive to just toss out. I have much experience in disassembly for this unit and I know that the pressure works as it does for you, it will be a matter of maintaining the same pressure indefinately. Thanks, I will let you all know the exact fix when I get one. |
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Francesco R
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Jan 28, 2008 21:50:11 GMT
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Great Jim,
thank you
Have to add that all those frequent freezing destroyed my internal 2 USB, and then the touchpad :(
Yes, now I even have an external usb mouse with a pmpci-usb
We are all waiting your news "big" Jim :) |
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Jim Boyland
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Jan 29, 2008 00:32:42 GMT
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I have just repaired my 1st NX6110 laptop without replacing the Motherboard. I cut a piece of styrofoam (the kind used to pack tape drives or hard drives) 2 inches long, 3/4 inches wide and 1 1/2 inches tall. I removed all of the screws from the bottom of the unit, including the screws under the battery, and under the memory module compartment cover. I removed the switch cover, and keyboard so that I could pry open the top cover. I lifted the top cover far enough to place the styrofoam between the 2 screw posts under the touchpad and on top of the large intel chip. The 2 screws closest to the memory compartment cover are almost directly across the large intel chip. When I reassembled the unit, I had to compress the top cover while turning the two screws. I am using the computer to write this reply. There is a hump directly above the touchpad, but otherwise working for the last 4 hours perfectly. I am using the playing music test and have not missed a beat since the "constant foam pressure on the large intel chip" fix. Thanks all for the info that made this fix possible. I will put this PC out for a field test and then repair the other 3 the same way if this one does not come back. I will let you all know how long the fix lasts, but so far this is the longest this computer has worked in since it developed symptoms. Thanks. |
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Jim Boyland
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Feb 2, 2008 00:31:10 GMT
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I first unit is still working perfectly. I have just finished repairing the other 3 units. Thanks for all of the information contained in this post. |
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Francesco R
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Feb 2, 2008 11:39:07 GMT
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Great Jim!
thank you very much, I will try it, too.
If you have time to put some pictures somewhere it will be great, anyhow I think your description should be good enough.
Thank you, keep us updated in case of some news about it
Ciao,
Francesco |
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Dan Rogger
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Feb 3, 2008 14:27:24 GMT
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Hey All,
I've had exactly the same problems as you've all had. I just followed the fix that Jim has put together and I'm typing back my reply on the computer itself. THANK YOU ALL and especially Jim who 'talked me through the procedure'.
To anyone reading this who is inexperienced in working with computers, I've never taken a computer apart, but found this quite straightforward. You'll need a few tools. The guide posted by Francesco was very helpful: http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c00502970/c00502970.pdf. Thank you Francesco.
I'll write back in a few days to say how the computer is faring. Good luck to all those who try this.
With best wishes,
Dan |
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Georgios Evangelidis
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Feb 6, 2008 11:58:35 GMT
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Hi all,
Let me share the symptoms I have with my nx6110.
The laptop is 2.5 years old has been running debian linux since day one. It's been about a year now that I started having usb problems (devices disconnecting for no apparent reason). To test my hypothesis that this is a hardware problem, I installed winxp. When I boot in winxp, in addition to the usb problems I have very regular touchpad and keyboard freezes. All symptoms temporarily disappear when I slightly "twist" the case or put a book under the laptop.
I was aware of the guide on how to disassemble the unit, but before proceeding I did some googling and that's how I discovered this thread.
Since I notice that only Francesco R reports usb problems, could somebody else please provide some input on this issue?
I will try the "put some pressure on intel ;-)" solution and I hope I'll have my laptop back in perfect working condition.
I thank everybody for the great input!
-Georgios |
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Jim Boyland
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Feb 8, 2008 23:09:51 GMT
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I also had USB issues on these units where I would get a the message "Power Surge on Hub Port: A USB device has malfunctioned and exceeded the power limits of its hub port. You should disconnect the device." I had nothing pluged into the USB ports. |
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Dan Rogger
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Feb 9, 2008 11:48:21 GMT
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Hi All,
Just wanted to reconfirm my above thread that my computer is still working fine. I've used it everday for the last week or so, so looks like the fix is a good one. Thank you everyone again.
With regards the USB port, this happened to me for months. I just switched off the notifications. Eventually however the USB port failed completely. I searched around for quite a while for a fix, but I didn't come up with anything.
Very best wishes,
Dan |
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Jim Boyland
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Feb 14, 2008 17:42:52 GMT
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I now have 4 units up and running that were previously in a useless pile. I can do the fix in approx. 20 minutes. |
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Georgios Evangelidis
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Feb 17, 2008 23:26:55 GMT
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Hi all,
Well, it took me some time, but this weekend I managed to apply the fix. I used a foamy material that is softer than styrofoam, so it had to be thicker than the piece described by Jim.
The area above the touchpad is slightly raised, but one can barely notice it.
It's been 10 hours now that the laptop works great! All usb, keyboard and touchpad mouse freezes have disappeared. Let's hope that this fix is permanent. I thank everyone for the great tips!
-Georgios
p.s. Jim, what kind of styrofoam do you use? Is it the standard rigid one? If yes, how do you manage to fit 1 1/2 inches above the intel chip and under the top cover? |
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Georgios Evangelidis
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Feb 17, 2008 23:32:47 GMT
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No, it was not my nx6110 that froze ;-)) It now works like new.
-Georgios |
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Francesco R
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Feb 18, 2008 08:17:25 GMT
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You guys!
I've waited too much, I guess, since I tried the fix with the foam, but my laptop keeps freezing...
I had to buy a new one (so just after 2.5 year): |
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Jim Boyland
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Feb 25, 2008 23:38:46 GMT
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The Styrofoam is the kind used to package hard drives or tape drives. It compresses quite significantly. I am supposing that any material that compresses to 1/4 to 1/3 of original size will work. The pressure that the foam exerts is faily significant. I had to play with a number of different materials until I found one that worked. I think even a rubber material would work, but the tolerance would be greater and you would have to be more exact in determining the size of the filler. |
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Francesco R
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Feb 26, 2008 00:31:52 GMT
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You guys....
after all these reaserches and talking, CAN we say that this laptop was not the best choice for us?
Can we say it's not "normal" ("fair"?) to have a notebook failing this way?.... right after warrenty?
I really liked everything about this nx6110... even now that I have a brand new lenovo... but geee!!!! is it possible we have to fix the mother board ...this way?
ahhhh... |
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padmcd
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Mar 3, 2008 00:28:34 GMT
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So this problem started for me a couple weeks ago. It really is getting a bit absurd. My thumbs are sore from constantly applying pressure underneath keyboard while trying to type to try to keep machine from freezing. I'm sure if I tried to dismantle the machine to attempt some of the fixes mentioned here I would just do more damage.
Any possible recourse with HP? I realize the 1yr warranty has lapsed (bought machine 2.5 yrs ago), but this is not acceptable. As I'm not good w/ tools and don't feel like taking my notebook apart, has anybody brought their machine to a service provider and had any success? What was cost?
By the way, this has taken about 5 minutes to type when it normally should take no more than 1 minute. |
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Francesco R
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Mar 3, 2008 07:14:37 GMT
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I'm from Italy and, shame on me and my country, we are kind of used to this sad situations. Some shoutings, as I did, but then no action.
Then best would be write a document all together asking for free/cheap replace of the mother board. What do you think?
Fra |
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Georgios Evangelidis
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Mar 3, 2008 07:50:19 GMT
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Dear all,
I think that padmcd and Francesco R have a very valid point. What happens with nx6110 is a bad design problem since it is common to so many units. Obviously, certain chips on the mainboard are sensitive to situations that stretch the case. Even if one replaces the mainboard, the same symptoms will eventually reappear...
Despite that, and provided that there are mainboards in stock, I believe that a company that values its customers, should sell replacement mainboard units for 50 euros (and not 300) since this is an old model.
-Georgios
p.s. I will soon update you with my adventures from the "fix it yourself" front... |
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Jim Boyland
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Mar 3, 2008 18:43:22 GMT
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I agree 100%. Anyone willing to contact HP, here are the numbers that I have. Let us know.
1-800-474-6836 Customer Care
1-888-943-8476 Mission Control |
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Jgreen1280
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Mar 5, 2008 06:53:53 GMT
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Wow, I was surprised to find that so many people having this issue with this unit; so recent too.
I have 2 of these units, an end user at my office was complaining of this issue and I just thought it was an ID 10 T error since I did not see the problems he was claiming; after swapping it out with 2 of the same model machines and then reinstalling his OS . I finally was sick of the complaints so I just gave him a new laptop.
I just spent the last 3 hours trying to "rehab" the unit for a less-experienced user, thinking I had faulty memory.
Thanks for the post everyone, I can now get some sleep... |
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padmcd
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Mar 5, 2008 21:28:34 GMT
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I called the customer care number and had no success. I explained in detail the issues at hand, and the fact that it seems to be quite widespread. All I got was that my warranty has expired and therefore I would have to pay the US$25 support fee to proceed.
Out of principle, I would not do so. I would have a hard time paying this fee when I suspect this to be a possible widespread design defect that renders these models virtually useless after 2 years. However, if I can't get traction elsewhere, maybe it's the thing to do.
Any suggestions? |
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medg85
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Mar 5, 2008 23:17:42 GMT
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Hi there,
I've been having very similar problems to everyone here. I took my laptop to pieces with my friend and we thought it was the hard drive, so I bought a new one. Sadly the problem persisted. At the time however I was getting pretty sick of Windows, so installed Ubuntu 7.10 as my main operating system, with a dual boot so I could still run Windows. Whereas Windows still has the freezing problem, Ubuntu seems to be fine. I only have to apply pressure when turning the computer on and off.
Now in theory, if one were to install Ubuntu and then install virtual machine software, such as VirtualBox, I know it is possible to clone the Windows partition as a virtual drive for a virtual machine (I have seen articles on the Internet). Therefore you could effectively run your existing machine through the virtual machine on Ubuntu. If I try it I will report on my success.
But the conclusion to my post is try Ubuntu. I'm not sure whether it's the fact it uses ext3 filing system over NTFS or whether Linux accesses the hard drive less, but I've got a functioning laptop again!
Regards,
Matt. |
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Does it matter Hehovski.
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Mar 8, 2008 12:55:26 GMT
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Hey people! I have the exact same problem,
and I dissasembled the NX6110, but still couldn't fix it. (I didn't know where to look)
Can anyone post pictures, or guide me thru' this? If I fix this problem, I will post pictures even videos how to do it.
I was very happy with Nx6110, I am typing this
from other laptop.
The problem is triggeerd right (it seems) days after the warranty. HP is not supporting its users.
Anyway, the last post is not true. I've been using Linux since I bought this laptop, the pressure problem has nothing to do with the opreating system. However, I already screwed my harddisk, I am network-booting the machine right now, however if I move it a little (I am using it as a server, when it does not move it does not hang), it freezes.
IF ANYONE CAN EXPLAIN ME HOW TO FIX THIS PROBLEM IN DETAIL, I WILL POST VIDEOS/PICTURES AFTERWARDS SO ANY COMPUTER USER CAN FIX IT ON ITS OWN.
Thanks in advance people! |
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Jim Boyland
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Mar 11, 2008 01:58:41 GMT
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I have noticed a number of these defective units on ebay recently that refer to this online forum post to help them repair their laptop after they win the auction. After seeing this, I am tempted to keep quiet about the fix, so that I can buy these units up, fix them and resell them. Anyone willing to sell theirs? |
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annette lindsay
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May 25, 2008 14:37:17 GMT
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I too have the same problem. My machine is about 2.5 years old. I can get it working by thumping down on the bottom right corner but I have to do it often and it gets really annoying.
We're looking at another laptop to replace this one and was looking at another HP but after reading this .......... I dont think the replacement will be an HP. |
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kevman
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Jun 10, 2008 03:01:05 GMT
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I've the same problem. I thought the hard drive (most common) was the problem (but nooooo!). I am assuming that the large Intel suspect chip described has something to do with controlling or communicating with the hard drive. It would be useful to understand if it is a connection problem with the pins and the motherboard or if the problem is internal to the suspect chip itself. I have several pieces of test gear available along with a heat gun and freeze spray. I would be dreaming to say I will look at this in the next few days, but if I find a specific problem in the future I will post it here. I understand the pressure fix, but am concerned as to its potential to cause complete failure due to the stresses involved. |
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John Doe The Third
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Jul 13, 2008 10:34:14 GMT
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Here you can see nx6110 motherboard with marked faulty chip:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/2622/nx6110ic5.jpg
The problematic pin is probably somewhere in the top left corner of this chip. Unfortunately this chipset is stick to motherboard with some kind of glue and I don't know how to remove it in order to check the pins/fix it. Any ideas?
BTW: solution with stressing the chip doesn't work for me. Well it works, but only until I press laptop's case a little harder. |
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John Doe The Third
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Jul 13, 2008 17:24:59 GMT
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Ok, I did some research; this chip is a BGA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array) so you don't have any chance to fix it by yourself, because it needs very sophisticated tools. It's funny that HP wants to replace whole motherboard instead of just regenerate the chip (which isn't hard, there plenty of companies that do this). Very wise and ecological (probably a part of their "stay green" attitude). |
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Michal Sigut
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Jul 16, 2008 08:41:44 GMT
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Hi,
I have the same problem. I've tried to fix it with something like Styrofoam but the problem is back again. Maybe I am using wrong material.
It is really "funny". I bought HP notebook because I heard HP provide best support. My big mistake. Their solution by replacing whole motherboard is really "best".
I've call them now and they told me that replacing motherboard is only one professional solution. And they haven't heard about this defect until now. And it is not absolutely design defect it is normal by using this notebook after few years. And it is random defect of the motherboard. And if here is the thread of few customers with similar defect of their motherboard it is also bad luck. Great HP arrogance. Never more HP!
Michael
from Czech republic |
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Georgios Evangelidis
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Jul 16, 2008 09:47:26 GMT
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Hi all,
I owe an update to my "fix it yourself" adventure. Unfortunately, the styrofoam fix I tried in March (with 2 or 3 different types of material) did not last very long - the computer worked perfectly only for a few hours. I then quit trying, since my laptop was almost functional in Linux (as I reported in a previous post, in Linux only usb functionality is the real problem, whereas in Windows the thing is unusable - problems with mouse, keyboard, usb ports...).
Two weeks ago, I had free time and I knew that I had to use a material that would apply more and permanent pressure to the evil intel chip. So, I used my daugther's barbie (!!!) eraser. It is a piece of hard rubber (about 3 by 2 by 1 cm). The important dimension is the 1 cm that has now created a very noticable bump between the space bar and the top side of the mouse pad.
Since I applied that fix, my laptop is in perfect working condition (in Windows also). Of course, I avoid benting its case by putting it on my lap - I use it only on hard surfaces (I guess this makes it a hardtop ;-))
My daugther has not noticed the missing eraser and although I am picky with aesthetics I can live with a curvy mousepad surface but a working laptop! Thank you Barbie Service Support!!! |
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lee grears
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Jul 22, 2008 15:45:59 GMT
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Hi Guys,
So then... back in december i had the exact same problem on my nx6110, freezing time after time. Eventually i bought a new motherboard from pc world business which stated in on it v2.0 which also give me 128mb of graphics - great i thaught. Until today! 6 month or so on same problem again with a brand new motherboard! whats the chances? anyways i'm not prepared to pay again to get it fixed. |
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Suliman Malkawi
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Jul 23, 2008 09:29:50 GMT
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Yes this problem found in some nx6110 laptops
the solve for this problem as i know is replace system board for your laptop
in some cases it may found when cpu fan stopped so you must check CPU heat and fan sound
thanks |
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Matt Blackler
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Aug 3, 2008 01:28:11 GMT
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Hi Guys
Thought I'd offer a little insight here and at the same time I'm afraid, deliver a bit of bad news.
The big Intel chip everybody is referring to here is the ICH or Interface Control Hub (formerly referred to as the 'south bridge').
Together with the GMCH (Graphics and Memory Control Hub, formerly 'north bridge') it sits on the main CPU bus and it basically controls everything apart from the Graphics and Memory ie. IDE bus, PCMCIA, Sound, Mousepad, Network etc...
The problem you're experiencing is due to 'dry joints' underneath the Intel ICH chip.
This chip does not have legs like most other chips but instead it is what is called a BGA chip. This stands for 'Ball Grid Array' and it refers to the balls of solder arranged in a grid on the underside of the chip.
When the chip is fitted to the board, the board is heated in such a way as to not damage the ICH chip but only to melt the balls of solder underneath. These melted solder balls then form the connection of each equivalent pin to the relevant pads on the motherboard. The board then cools and the ICH is fitted.
The problem you're experiencing is caused by one or more of these connections being broken or 'dry joint' as I mentioned earlier.
When you apply pressure to the top of this chip, you are in fact pressing these broken solder links back down on to the motherboard.
This itself is only a temporary repair.
So... The bad news I have for those of you seeking a more permanent repair is that there isn't one. The ICH cannot be resoldered to the motherboard without the specialist equipment I mentioned earlier and any attempt to repair it without such equipment has a 99% chance of damaging either the board, or more likely the ICH, beyond repair.
In fact, when a repair centre usually undertakes this repair, a brand new ICH is usually fitted to ensure that the ICH is not damaged by heat during the repair.
This is most likely the reason you're not getting much help from HP.
I know this as I work in a repair centre myself, not for HP admittedly, but I know what I'm talking about.
So... Bad news is there is no economically viable permanent repair. I recommend replacement of the motherboard to be honest. Ok so it costs a bit but it'll solve the problem.
Hope this is useful... |
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lee grears
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Aug 3, 2008 09:17:59 GMT
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the problem for though is i've replaced the main board already and then 6 months later.... same again. |
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Rainald
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Aug 3, 2008 14:46:18 GMT
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Thanks a lot, Matt, for the most instructive explanation of the problem.
As the similar problems occur with other models if the nxNNNN series, it seems that the basic construction is suffering.
Under these circumstances it would have been only too fair had HP offered an exchange for the faulty motherboards.
But as the machine are really old meanwhile I don't see any chance for a solution ...
Rainald |
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Matt Blackler
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Aug 3, 2008 17:47:33 GMT
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Ok... Got an update for you folks...
I have been looking at an nx6110 myself and have been experiencing the same fault. It has in fact caused a hard drive fault too but that can be sorted later...
I have managed to fix this problem by resoldering the ICH (large Intel chip) without the specialist equipment but still by using some appropriate tools.
If any of you are feeling brave and have the tools I am about to mention, you MIGHT want to give this a go...
I WILL NOT accept any responsibility however, for any damage caused to your motherboard in the process - You attempt this repair at your own risk...
And it is a risk, let me tell you...
Overview:
By doing the following you are melting the solder balls underneath the ICH in order to achieve reconnection to the terminal pads on the motherboard. This process is known as a reflow.
You will need:
1) A Leister or equivalent heat gun (It must be a heat gun specifically designed for the purpose of soldering and electronic re-work. A paintstripping heat gun will NOT do).
2) A liquid synthetic-based re-work flux (resin-based flux will make a sticky mess which will be very difficult to clean away after re-work)
3) IPA (IsoPropyl Alcohol) or equivalent solvent cleaner approved for PCB use.
4) Some sort or short-bristle brush, preferably nylon, for scrubbing with IPA.
5) Compressed air/Air duster can.
6) Scalpel
WARNING:
DO NOT FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS AS YOU GO.
READ THEM RIGHT THROUGH BEFORE ATTEMPTING THE REPAIR.
Instructions:
1) Detach the mainboard from all plastics and remove all devices plugged into the board (inc. modem, wireless network etc). You do NOT need to remove the CPU or heatsink as these are mounted far enough away from the work area not to be damaged.
2) Remove any black protective self-adhesive mylar. This may seem pointless but it WILL melt when you start heating the board and it WILL be rendered useless as a result.
3) Remove the glue from the edges of the ICH with the scalpel. Be sure not to damage the surface of the board during this process and try not to jam the scalpel under the ICH.
When the glue is removed, the ICH will appear to be suspended approximately 1mm above the mainboard surface.
4) Place the board so that it rests on your worktop with the ICH TOPSIDE and so that this section of the board hangs off the edge of the worktop. This is because you will need to heat the board from the UNDERNEATH.
5) Apply a GENEROUS amount of liquid flux. You will need to keep this to hand throughout the following steps as it will evaporate and burn away in the process and you will need to constantly reapply as you go.
6) Now your ICH is sat in it's own little puddle of flux you can begin heating with the heatgun from the UNDERSIDE of the board.
I can't tell you what settings to have your gun at as they all vary slightly but... It will need to be set to a high heat and medium speed. You are trying to heat the board to solder-melting temperature WITHOUT burning the board. This is the tricky bit and you should exercise extreme caution as you do so.
Hold the gun about 10-15cm away from the underside of the board, directing the airflow upwards on the direct opposite side of the board to the ICH. Continue to move the gun round in a circle so that you achieve even heating across the area of the board the ICH sits on. The trick to the success of this repair lies just here. You are attempting to get all of the 100+ solder balls to melt AT THE SAME TIME.
The heating of the board to such a temperature will take a good while - approx 5 to 10 mins and requires patience and care!
Be sure to keep applying the flux as you go and be sure not to nudge or jolt the board in any way. If the ICH slips even slightly, the repair WILL fail. When the solder balls have melted you will notice the ICH sit VERY slightly lower to the surface of the board. As soon as you see this happen, STOP HEATING.
Remember that any slight nudges as this point or any lateral movement of the ICH whatsoever WILL cause the repair to fail.
Do not apply any more flux from this point.
7) Allow the board at least 10 mins to cool and the solder to solidify.
8) Remove any flux residue using the brush and IPA.
9) Blow away IPA residue with compressed air/air duster can.
DONE
I've done this myself approximately 20 times and although I know what I'm doing, I have achieved a probable 75% success rate.
If you fancy your chances then by all means give it a go but this repair is only going to have one of two outcomes - a working board or a dead board.
Up to you... |
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Jim Boyland
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Aug 4, 2008 17:39:41 GMT
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I have 9 systems with the same problem. How much will you charge me to reflow all of these ICH chips if I disasemble and send you only the motherboards? |
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Matt Blackler
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Aug 5, 2008 00:47:10 GMT
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Oh, by the way folks...
If attempting the styrofoam/rubber pad fix, you may find that removing the glue from the edges of the ICH is beneficial.
If attempting the ICH reflow fix, BEWARE that there are quite a few very small surface mount components on the opposite side of the board to the ICH. Please be careful not to blow these off the board with the hot air gun. If you hold the gun no closer than 10cm then the surface tension of the molten solder should be enough to keep them in place. But it's something to keep an eye on!
And Jim, I'm very sorry my friend, but I'm not willing to undertake such repairs. The board I fixed was a one-off and a BIG favour for a desperate friend. I'm afraid no amount of money will encourage me to spend my spare time doing what I do during my working day. The time I've spent explaining in detail how to do it yourself is as much time as I'm prepared to spend. |
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LibiG
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Aug 26, 2008 08:29:58 GMT
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Hi Matt,
do you have any photos taken during the repairment? I am going to try to repair my ntb this way - live or die, I have nothing to loose.
Thanks. |
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egypt1513
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Aug 28, 2008 08:00:59 GMT
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I have just carried out the styrofoam fix and it worked a treat!
The first time I attemped this fix the laptop would not boot up, the lights just flashed. At this point I thought 'oh well, stick it on ebay for spairs/repair'. I first decided to have another shot and take everything apart and reconnect all the cables etc. Put it all back together and wham bam thank you mam, it worked! |
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Internet Bob
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Aug 31, 2008 16:17:04 GMT
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I will be trying Jim's styrofoam fix later today on a buddy's laptop |
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Angelo Kirchner
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Aug 31, 2008 19:53:56 GMT
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Hi , the styrofoam works very well.
After much of one year finally something that
works. |
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Kon Tiki
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Sep 1, 2008 10:59:01 GMT
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Hi
I somehow came up on my own with the idea that has been apparently been working to an extent for most people, ie. of applying pressure on that chip eg. by putting something between it and the mouse pad.
This, as others have experienced at times works for a while & stops & if one is lucky the problem does not turn up again.
In my case, it keeps coming and with WLAN also being at times affected because of some loose component.
Most seriously, I seemed to have damaged the keyboard in the most recent attempt to get a better positioning for the pad between the chip & mousepad. For some reason, only some keyboard keys are are working, about half of them, the rest, including ENTER & lots more not anymore.
This of course makes using the laptop almost impossible with half of the keys not working.
This is further complicated by the fact that when connecting USB sticks or even external mouse or keyboard, they are too frequently not recognized!!!!! This was/is not always the case.
I think there's something wrong with the USB related connections in general. Anyone who has solved this?
I have been able to live with these problems, but the keyboard issue needs to be solved!
Does anyone know what I could have disconnected or damaged to lead to only some of the keyboard keys to work?
Thanks & regards |
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Kon Tiki
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Sep 1, 2008 11:17:44 GMT
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Small correction: When I connect a USB device, such as USB Stick or Mouse or keyboard, I get the error message that the device malfunctioned. Nothing I do, whether reconnecting or restarting the laptop helps. I never used to have this problem before and could use the USB stick, but now I cannot. Regarding thec keyboard, yesterday I connected a Microsoft Keyboard with USB connection & it worked, though it's not mine. Today when I try to connect another keyboard (which was my hope for solving the keyboard malfunction) or mouse I only get the mentioned errors.
:( |
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Rhonda York
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Sep 10, 2008 16:46:03 GMT
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I also have the nx6110. The usb has been a major issue. I use these ports religously. I recently uninstalled all drivers for the usb ports and reinstalled them. I also reset all of my registry permissions. This seems to have fixed the usb issues. I have some devices that I have not tried yet so I am not certain, but all existing devices are ok.
Remember usb's by derision or design will reassign id's each time you plug in a device, so try to use the same usb port each time. Also, the bottom one is the faster port if you turned that option on in bios and it may not work with all devices.
Thanks guys for the service guide! I broke the pin that my power adapter plugs onto and have rigged the adapter with copper wire to keep my notebook charged, sparks fly occasionally! (that can't be good)
Now I can take this baby apart and solder it back on!
Great thread!
Rhonda |
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Jim Boyland
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Sep 10, 2008 18:05:41 GMT
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Just go to ebay and search for nx6110 and you will find that power connector for the motherboard. I have replaced about 20 of these in the last 3 years. I just take appart the entire unit, remove the system board, take a fingernail clipper to remove the defective then de-solder the legs, then solder in the new power connector and re-assemble. I can do the entire fix in about 30 minutes. Make sure you have a decent set of tools. |
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Steve Wilds
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Sep 17, 2008 14:48:51 GMT
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Hi Kon Tiki,
The problem you are having is easy to repair,
Just take the keyboard off and reposition the the connection of the Keyboard that sits in the slot on the motherboard, if it still continues then do what I had to do on an old one of mine (place something over the connection and put the Keyboard back on, so it appllies a little pressure) something about 1mm thick will do the trick.
Hope this Helps. |
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Rytis Umbrasas
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Sep 21, 2008 19:49:37 GMT
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Thank You , Jim, very much!
It looks like that foam (by Your description) works for me too!
Now I have one more laptop!
Thank You!
Rytis |
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joe gatliff
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Dec 11, 2008 13:40:06 GMT
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I bought an nx6110 off eBay with this problem and tried Styrofoam and felt pads to use as pressure and none of them worked. It would last for about 15 min then it would start freezing and the usb ports would die. So I would have to shut it down and use my desktop. I fixed it by re soldering the chip with tinning flux and a blowtorch. It took about an hour to get it hot since I didn't want to get the torch to close to the board. I could tell it was ready by using a little screwdriver and moving the chip just a hair (bad idea but it worked). I have had it running music now for about 8 hours since I done it and everything works great. Mine was to the point of junk anyways so I had nothing to lose by doing this but it worked so I am happy. Thanks to the guy that described how he had done it. |
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Jim Boyland
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Dec 15, 2008 16:48:02 GMT
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I removed the styrofoam fixes and applied about a 1/2 inch of stiff rubber instead. This works much better and has lasted several months. It puts a slight buldge above the touchpad when reassembled, but other than that works great! I wish I had time for the re-solder fix, as this would be the "real" permanent fix. Thanks to all who have contributed to this forum. |
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Hugh Hyatt
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Dec 22, 2008 13:36:25 GMT
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I had been having these problems with my NX6110 for several weeks before I found this thread. I suspect now that my problems directly resulted from using the laptop on my lap, without a firm flat surface underneath it and the consquent slight but inevitable twisting of the frame that followed.
Two nights ago, I applied the styrofoam fix described by Jim Boyland in his 29 Jan 2008 post above. It worked very well and I was quite pleased.
For about 20 hours. Now I am back where I started with the same freeze/hang, USB and mousepad issues, and in addition I have a noticeable bump at the upper right corner of my mousepad. Furthermore the optical drive is no longer recognized, so now I am off to figure out why that is. |
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Kon Tiki
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Dec 22, 2008 13:57:44 GMT
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Before I read this thread, i had found out that by applying some pressure on different parts of the laptop between the keyboard & mousepad it could temporarily help.
I then put some stuff under, later including foam.
The problem, is it only helped for a short time & needed shifting it.
I was able to use it that way for several months, though. This however inevitably seems to wear out some parts with time.
Recently, during one of such "operations", I seem to have damaged something. The laptop now does not boot & seems quite "determined" not to react to any form of nudging or "tickling" done to any of those components. I just have one orange light on when connected to power, & no reaction to the power switch or anything else.
Is there anything I can do to get it up) [any help offered, would be appreciated if any reference is made to the photo of the laptop inside provided by someone, above] The very high repair costs here make me rule out seeking prof. help, though I really need the machine.
It is really been frustrating at times when the LP has got frozen just when one is doing something very important - making me feel like give it a severe beating. ;)
Anyway, though I have more or less given up on it, I would appreciate any help
Regards |
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Francesco R
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Dec 22, 2008 17:48:29 GMT
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hey tiki
just a basic advice... did you try to take away the battery for a minute? (and unplugging of course)?
I had to do this with mine sometimes... |
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Kon Tiki
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Dec 22, 2008 21:29:00 GMT
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Hi
Yes, I have done everything, including removing the battery (several times), letting it rest for several days, patting, shaking it ... all to no available, so far.
It is a pity so many people ended up spending so much money on such a gadget with an inbuilt problem. |
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Jim Boyland
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Dec 23, 2008 00:02:00 GMT
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The stiff rubber exactly 3/4" thick works great. The foam will only work for a while. Make sure you have a torx screwdriver and tighten the two screws oposite the touchpad very tight and position the rubber in the middle of the chip. I have at least 10 of these with the fix that have worked several months without error. I will buy these devices from anyone who has given up on them. -Jim |
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joe gatliff
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Dec 23, 2008 02:28:44 GMT
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My Computer is still working great from heating up the board to melt the solder. If it gets to where you are going to get rid it of you might as well give it a shot what do ya really have to lose? |
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Spleen Harvester
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Feb 19, 2009 20:43:15 GMT
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ok,
I think I have a possible solution. I've had a broken one since Dec 30th 08. I tried the rubber fix but then the laptop only worked on tables. Today I put a small thin (but firm) piece of metal on top of the broken intel chip, there was a little overhang but not much - and put a Sainsburys firm rubber on top of that. I then made sure it was not shorting (components around the edge, the touchpad underside, and metal parts of the case) - then after putting the screws in I fired it up, put some music on, and tried various tests on it - it did not hang once.
I wouldn't risk doing it unless you really have to incase it causes a problem. If it does, it's not my fault :-)
Will post back if it stops working again. |
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Spleen Harvester
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Feb 19, 2009 20:47:30 GMT
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oh yeah, and just to add, be VERY careful it does not short - mine did once, seemed completely dead - after disassembling completely (yes, disconnecting the LCD, inverter, CPU, basically the lot) and reassembling it started again. took ages. |
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Martin Vol
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Feb 26, 2009 22:30:46 GMT
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recommend service www.ntbservis.cz
Doporucuji servis www.ntbservis.cz |
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Chris Mylonas
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Mar 3, 2009 09:51:40 GMT
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 11, 2009 11:46:16 GMT
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ok, now something really odd has happened. I had an idea on how to get it working w/o the touchpad bulge. On the offchance that it might start working again I took all the rubber etc out and started it up. not one hang yet. if it dies later I might put the rubber and metal back in and disconnect the fan, then run Prime95 on it. I have tried bending it etc and that didn't cause any issues. Did it do a self-reflow? |
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 11, 2009 18:18:28 GMT
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I think I've fixed it. maybe my solder joints weren't too damaged or something.
Eventually without rubber it stopped working again. I then unclipped the keyboard (but left it connected), unclipped the plastic, and ran prime95 on "In Place FFTs" - max heat, power etc. after that I removed the rubber and stuck my hand in. I used that hand to keep pressure on the middle and top left, and with the other hand I played colin mcrae rally 4 to add to the heat. I had to change hands sometimes so that I didn't burn myself. I waited about 5-10 mins and by that time it was very hot. Still holding consistent pressure on the damaged chip I removed the battery, and waited until it cooled down. I now have it up and running, it seems to cope well with heat (it doesn't get too hot in game, P95 did most of the work) CPU temps are generally 40*c - 60*c. while heating it they were around 70*c - 80*c. Don't get any USB problems now either, for the record. I had to do it twice as first time around I screwed up and made it worse.
If you do try this please be careful, it is electricity you're messing with, try not to touch any electrical components or the top of the mousepad - just try and stay with your fingers on the chip. Don't burn yourself either :-) once again if it goes wrong, please bare in mind I'm not the responsible one. thanks. |
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 11, 2009 18:20:22 GMT
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side note: don't remove the battery while it's on (although that's probably obvious). |
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Peter Heel
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Mar 14, 2009 00:20:30 GMT
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Hi All, I've been reading your post regarding keeping the chip in place with metal,styrene foam etc. I havent actually stripped this model down so I might be talking crap here, but could you not make up a clamp of some sort to put some pressure on the chip and then fix it down with Areldite or similar. Then take the clamp off when the glue sets??? Just a thought. Peter |
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 14, 2009 14:59:39 GMT
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@ above - not possible, there is already epoxy glue around the chip. I had an idea which involved drilling holes through a piece of metal and using elastic through the screw holes but the fix I previously posted is still working great for me, so I haven't tried it. |
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varna
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Mar 22, 2009 08:41:32 GMT
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WOW Everyone Great job in finding the cure.
I was already looking for new motherboards when i came to this forum.
PRESSING ON THE SOUTH/NORTH? BRIDGE CHIP REALLY WORKS.
THAT IS THE BIG INTEL CHIP UNDERNEATH THE TOUCHPAD.
Just wanted to add that the way i fixed mine was i bought Mr.Clean Magic Eraser sponge, cut two layers of it exactly the same square size as the chipset and layered on top of each other. It works great.
Thanks much everyone. |
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 23, 2009 20:22:06 GMT
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just to let y'all know, mine's still working without rubber from the fix I last suggested (off surface, playing music etc, got pulled off sofa once too :P), if you're desperate it might be worth a try. |
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rick walker
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Mar 24, 2009 12:03:32 GMT
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I just tried the 1cm rubber eraser fix. Boots up now without squeezing the case. I can hear fan ranging up and down though.. I am wondering if there are other faults that follow from coping with the original problem for so long?
Also, is there a real risk that the chip will overheat now that it has a slab of insulating rubber sitting on it? |
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Peter Heel
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Mar 24, 2009 13:05:55 GMT
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Good point about the heat, anybody notice how you're lucky to get 18 months use from a new duo core laptop? I've got 2 pentium 4 laptops 4 years old, good as new. Had 3 Gateway duo core with Invidia graphics, all fried Mobo's just outside warranty period !!
Peter |
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 24, 2009 17:22:30 GMT
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I doubt it could overheat too badly - when mine had the rubber fix the tempurature maxed out at 49*c idle and 58*c load. However, if your fan is speeding up and it's not on a flat surface you may need some more thermal compound on the CPU, or possibly (but rarely) the northbridge. |
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 25, 2009 10:59:38 GMT
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*correction - I meant "if it IS on a flat surface". |
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Spleen Harvester
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Mar 28, 2009 22:02:58 GMT
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for anyone else like me who still had USB problems after repair (still working fine!),
I upgraded BIOS revision from F.06 to F.14 (which in turn updated the keyboard driver)and installed chipset drivers - so far so good. |
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Adrian Intriago
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Apr 3, 2009 17:30:59 GMT
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Hey everyone,
I too have this problem with a NX6110, I am on my way to trying the rubber on top of the intel chip fix, hope it works, I'll post an update after I'm done "fixing" it. |
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rick walker
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Apr 3, 2009 20:32:48 GMT
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I used rubber fix. Sort of works, but Computer now shows signs of 'jittering' - eg on music, sound is often interrupted momentarily, rather like dropouts on a tape. So I have decided this laptop is a lost cause. Feel very let down as I chose the compaq name as it used to stand for well-tested and absolute confidence. I think HP-compaq should offer a proper repair ragardless of warranty. In my mind, they have tarnished their brand value. |
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Spleen Harvester
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Apr 4, 2009 20:25:59 GMT
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you could always try as I suggested earlier - a piece of metal underneath or stress it while holding the chip down.
Unfortunately the DC socket broke on mine the other day, so I have given up - it needed a new screen, bezel, and cable anyway. |
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steve_nx8220
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Apr 6, 2009 14:12:43 GMT
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Sorry if you may of read this in a similar posting, but I've possibly a similar problem on my NX8220.
I have to apply pressure to the bottom left of the laptop to get it to boot.
This appears to be over the fan/thermal plate and processor.
If I don't get the pressure right all led's light up and it sounds like the hd and fan are operating but I get no display.
If I'm lucky it'll boot no probs in one and could stay running normally all day long.
On bad days it could take as many as 15 attempts.
HP did call me, but my machine is out of warranty being 4 years old so said the would pass on to customer services. I still await there reply.
I appreciate any advice, and I guess if all else fails it seems the styrofoam pressure works a treat in one area, could work in another.
Happy days folks!! |
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rick walker
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Apr 6, 2009 14:37:53 GMT
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To Spleen.. Why do you need to hold chip down with your hand? I have already put rubber in place and clamped covers back down, so would it not work to just run a heavy program (you mention prime 95) and let things take their course that way? |
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Spleen Harvester
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Apr 6, 2009 15:25:09 GMT
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I tried it with rubber not my hand before, and for some reason or another it didn't work - it just got worse.
I'm keeping my eye out for another broken motherboard on ebay to see if I can do the same to that. |
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db_sonic
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Apr 15, 2009 21:28:26 GMT
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FWIW, I have an 3yr old nx6110 showing similar problems: freeze at boot, Power surge on USB port (yet nothing plugged in), WLAN also failed mysteriously. It all started about 2 months ago coincidentally, I suspect, with being dropped about 2 feet onto carpet and thereafter it developed this attitude. Too bad, as I really liked the computer.
Thanks to Matt for his post. The problem is most likely mechanical i.e. and only way to fix (reliably) is probably solder re-flow the south bridge. I'll be doing some tap tests to verify. |
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Spleen Harvester
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Apr 23, 2009 20:53:58 GMT
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That probably caused it. Any sudden impact/flex can break the joint.
Still on the hunt for a board with naff joints ;( |
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joe gatliff
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Apr 23, 2009 21:16:22 GMT
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My laptop is still working great after heating up the mother board under the chip 4 months ago. I have not had any problems yet and move it around a lot. All the other fixes with rubber failed to work longer than an hour and I tried everything even planed on drilling holes through the board and using 2 plates on top and bottom clamped with screws. however there was no good place to drill a hole so heating the solder was my last and only option and still works fine 4 months later. |
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S Cardozo
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May 22, 2009 00:48:19 GMT
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Hey I have one of these that works when I press it, I tried to do the Styrofoam fix but I dont think i am doing it correctly as I still need to press down for it to work... |
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Jim Boyland
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May 22, 2009 15:18:46 GMT
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Rubber works much better than styrofoam. |
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S Cardozo
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May 22, 2009 18:45:50 GMT
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Anyone interested in taking it off my hands i need to get a new one, Everything is reinstalled and Altiris backup done as well. So pristine, I have the recovery disk too.
Let me know your offer.
Sunil |
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Joseph Mwangala
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Jun 16, 2009 15:28:42 GMT
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I am also experiencing a similar problem with my nx6110. I am based in Uganda (Africa). I purchased mine in 2005 and this problem started a couple of months back. My question to HP is: Do they design their products to last a few months after the warranty period? |
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ene victor
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Jun 24, 2009 07:42:08 GMT
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100 euros to repair :-o i think i will heat my laptop soon. it's ok to use a industrial drier?
Victor.
Romania. |
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PATRICK DALEY
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Aug 6, 2009 15:29:10 GMT
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Same issues as everyone else.
There's some kind of contact issue with the hard drive on mine. I've completely disassembled and reassembled in the hope that there might have been something a little off center, etc., but it didn't help.
I have to squeeze the area below the right of the keyboard where the hard drive bay is in order to get it to work otherwise it's completely unresponsive. |
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rick walker
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Aug 6, 2009 15:37:04 GMT
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Spleen..
Have attempted heat repair by running the Prime prog as advised (don't have any games to run) and pressing down with hands for over ten mins. No luck. Have repeated twice. (Does it make sense to simply repeat?) Any suggestions? Heat gun ???
Ta |
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PATRICK DALEY
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Aug 6, 2009 21:21:55 GMT
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Also, to be safe I installed a new hard drive and ran SpinRite on it with no issues found so I know it's not the drive itself. |
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Mystère Ébouldegom
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Aug 27, 2009 00:04:01 GMT
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This issue is ridiculous ...
I repeatedly pushed/released the area between the touchpad and the keyboard, and the Windows progress bar would stop when I'd release and start again when I'd apply pressure ...
Talk about bad design !
Otherwise, this laptop has been great, always reliable.
Now if my friends could stop laughing at my laptop ! |
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Florian Rodary
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Sep 4, 2009 06:56:15 GMT
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Same problem here with my 4-year old nc8230...
The mobo has been changed once already for the same problem two years ago... Now it's out of warranty.
Can HP do something? I bought this professional series computer on purpose, because I believed that the quality would be better than regular, end-user oriented laptops. Alas, this is not true...
What to do? I'm not keen to buy a 150â¬+ mobo on eBay and repair it myself... |
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Farooq Bhai
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Sep 16, 2009 13:47:25 GMT
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Okay ... I recently had the exact same problem, tried the whole foam/plastic pressure piece.
This did not solve my problem for long.
I have however found the best solution...
All you need to do is remove the motherboard as described in the service manual posted above.
Remove all easily removble parts i.e RAM, Modem etc.
The CPU can stay
REMOVE ALL STICKER PLASTIC
Now get a small blade or small flat screw driver and slowly and gently remove the silicone glue that holds the problem chip(as mentioned above the big intel one) on its sides.
This silicone will come away in one piece relatively easy.
Anyhow once this is done place the motherboard in an antistaic bag (I just used a plastic bag :D)
Head out to your nearest cellular repair shop and ask the technition to reflow the chip. indicate to him which one.
These guys do things like this everyday on cellular repair.
The guy I gave mines to was from a nokia care shop and did it in 20min for free.
ANyhow no problems for quite some time.
Cheers |
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James D R Smith
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Nov 7, 2009 23:17:45 GMT
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Ah ha !
I too have exactly the same problem.
We've sold loads of these and they're all starting to display this symptom are around two to three years old.
I'm also aware of a similar problem with Apple iBook G4 which I have and have performed a similar workaround.
Glad I found this thread, exactly what I was looking for, I'll try the rubber spacer fix first then if not I'll maybe try and get one reflowed and see how it fares. |
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Tomislav Kraljek
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Nov 8, 2009 16:55:44 GMT
Unassigned
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Yes, problem is in southbridge chip.
After solding with IC solding station, laptop works great, but is not 100% that will be problem resolve.
I repair few laptops with this problem. Acer and Fujitsu siemens have same problem.
Bg,
Tomislav |
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James D R Smith
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Nov 8, 2009 17:47:07 GMT
Unassigned
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Seems like an unexpected underlying design flaw using BGA for the chip connection.
Surly this needs looking at by trading standards authorites does't it ?
Surely not fit for purpose if it fails so soon ?
What are the timescales on this ?
Just because the warranty has ran out that doesn't necassarily mean they can wash their hands of the problem, Apple couldn't..
Hmm.. seems that there is a European directive that refers to recompence for goods failing within what is deemed to be a reasobale life expectancy regardless of the warranty period, and it's been suggested that with a PC this could be three years.
But the directive indicates that this reflects the sales contact between the buyer and the seller and not the manufacturer.
So it would appear that you would have to take the matter up with the company the unit was purchased from and in turn it's their option whether they take this up with the manufacturer or not.
Any legal people out their with anything to add ? Seems this is a common problem right across the board with laptops, PC's, gamimg consoles, mobile phones. |
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Spleen Harvester
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Nov 26, 2009 21:56:10 GMT
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@All those saying the P95 method didn't work - You do have to press quite hard, at the bottom-left corner I think?.. I can't remember (The jack socket snapped on mine). Has to be done for quite a while too.
If anyone in the UK wants to sell me their knackered laptop or motherboard please let me know - I'm desperate to get hold of a replacement board w/ at least the bottom plastics. Make me an offer :) |
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Spleen Harvester
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Nov 26, 2009 22:02:28 GMT
Unassigned
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Also what I did to mine was P95 -> Play CMR4 (any other 3d game should do -> Stop fan until the CPU heats up a lot, I plugged it in again when it went >85*c (check with speedfan) although you may want to go with something like 60*c -> Press down on Southbridge, hard. Keep pressure. |
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